Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:03 Separate zones and tropics climbs not through currents and thriving seas. Winds blowing some freezing trees. Strong zone, safe sunshine. Good planets to fun.
Speaker 1 00:00:25 Good afternoon. Case Squid listeners. It's every other Sunday again. And you're, and this is Sustainability, now a biweekly case, squid Radio Show focused on environment, sustainability and social justice in the Monterey Bay region, California in the world. And I'm your host Ronnie Lipitz. Many of our listeners probably know that the uc Regents recently approved the university's student housing West proposal, which includes large buildings with some 3000 beds on the west side of campus. Large Stalinist type buildings, in my view, and the relocation of family student housing to the iconic East Meadow on the east side. Whe whether and when construction will begin is anyone's guess, but a lot of people are opposed to the move. A lot of people are in support of the, of, of the building as well. My guests today are Nadia Paralta and Bob Maisler of Protect East Meadow. Not to be confused with the East Meadow Action Committee, uh, sorry. Protect East Meadow has been active at U C S C in opposing the Family Student housing project on both financial and ecological grounds. Naja is a full-time pre-med student and practicing clinical herbalist. Bob is a U C S E lecturer in psychology with interest in social and environmental justice. Both are strongly committed to preserving open space on the U C S C campus. Bob and naia, welcome to sustainability now.
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Thank you. It's so nice to be
Speaker 1 00:01:55 Here. And, and Bob, you can unmute yourself. Can you hear us?
Speaker 3 00:02:00 Can you hear me
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Now? We can hear you. Great.
Speaker 3 00:02:03 Great to be here, Ronnie. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:02:05 Okay. Um, why don't you start by telling us about your group and then about yourselves, who you are.
Speaker 2 00:02:13 Sure. Thank you. Uh, so our group goes by the name Protectees Meadow. And, uh, we, I like to describe us as a working group of people who came together around the, what we call UCSD's East Meadow. Uh, we started meeting regularly last summer in July, and we met after, um, myself, Nadia, uh, got one of the, um, emac East Meadow Action Committee, uh, newsletters that was talking about how the struggle for the East Meadow was ongoing. And, um, there was a little bit of hope in the newsletter at the time that made me think that, um, if those of us who were interested in seeing an alternative to developing on the Meadow got together regularly that we could, um, raise some more public awareness about the nuances involved in the project and alternatives to it. And fortunately, there were other friends and colleagues, longtime comrades who came together to do that as well. Do you wanna add anything, Bob?
Speaker 3 00:03:23 That's great, Nadia. Yeah, just that, um, yeah, as we like to say, we have a really, I think, good and respectful relationship and grateful relationship to emac. Um, but we are also a little bit different in our approach, and we'll probably talk about that a little bit as the show goes on. Um, so yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:43 Yeah, it would be, it would probably be useful to know the, about the difference. Um, well, let's, let's start, you know, some of our listeners may not know exactly what Student Housing West entails, and I mean, it's been going on since 2017 or so. I think that's when it was first proposed. Um, and so now it's six years later and no ground has been broken. So what do the, what does Student Housing West involve and include?
Speaker 2 00:04:09 Yeah, that's a great question and always a good place to start. So, student Housing West, as the name would suggest, is a, uh, redevelopment, uh, that was supposed to take place on the west side of campus. And that's really important because we are talking about the struggle for the East Meadow. So these two opposite directions and locations on campus. And so student Housing West, um, has a lot of, uh, really valid needs and, and reasons for being a thing. Um, it involves family student housing, which is on the west side of campus. And it, uh, my understanding is that family student housing has a lot of issues. That's an old building. There's some pretty chronic black mold problems. And, um, it really doesn't accommodate all of the family students with families that need housing. And so, um, the original proposal, uh, was to tear down that building and rebuild it higher and bigger, uh, to accommodate more people. So that was, um, passed by the Regents and then, um, vetoed by California Fish and Wildlife. And so why East Meadow? The site at Hagar Coolidge,
Speaker 1 00:05:25 I, I was gonna say some, you know, that, that the original plan as I regar remember it was to rebuild Stu family, student housing and then to build a big development right next to Porter Yes.
Speaker 2 00:05:36 And involved the Porter Meadow. And that's why
Speaker 1 00:05:38 California Fish and Wildlife got involved because of the red-legged frog,
Speaker 2 00:05:41 I think the red-legged flop frog.
Speaker 1 00:05:43 Exactly. Right. So then the, the big site had to be moved and it was being moved to where family student housing is now.
Speaker 2 00:05:51 Yes. Right.
Speaker 1 00:05:51 Yes. Okay. So I just wanted to clarify
Speaker 2 00:05:54 That. Yes, no, that's a great clarification. So then, um, I still think that another little piece as I understood the literature was that that next plan that just included family student housing was still too big to accommodate the, uh, red-legged frog. And so that there's like some spill over that happened onto the East Meadow and that, that happened because a developer at the time saw the meadow as just this open space that had never been properly taken advantage of. And, um, was like, why, why haven't you built here without really a lot of context about, uh, the founding aesthetics and sort of principles of U C S C, which is really where I think EMAC does a great job of, um, highlighting the issue with moving over to the East Meadow.
Speaker 1 00:06:45 Okay. And, and then what does the, uh, the plan, the, the plan in East Meadow look like? It's, it's on a Hagrid drive and, um, Bob, is that something that you can address what what is proposed for that particular site?
Speaker 3 00:07:00 Sure, yeah. I can, um, offer some insight into that. And, um, so yeah, the, it is supposed to be 140 new two bedroom apartments for students and families with childcare near there. Um, and, um, so that is how many beds it would have, and that's an important piece of it. Uh, this 140 beds would only represent 5% of the 3000 beds that this, um, family student or, sorry, uh, um, housing West Student Housing West Plan is supposed to have. So, um, yeah, that's what that would look like. It would, um, you know, we're hoping, you know, that it doesn't start next year, but the university would like to start building on it had a recent, um, like go ahead from the Regents. Um, in a recent meeting, um, it got the, the green light, and that was something that sort of came about a little bit unexpectedly there. It had been in litigation, um, a few lawsuits from the city of Santa Cruz, uh, like, uh, residents of the city of San Santa Cruz. Um, so yeah, that's where it's at right now. Um, na do you want to add anything to that? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:08:26 If I could just add that, uh, for folks who are familiar with that Meadow, it represents about 17 acres of the meadow itself, which is not the entire meadow, but it would be literally that think they would open up that corner at Hagar and Coolidge to get into the new development site. Um, all of this has been, uh, like simulated into 3D models on the Student Housing West website, if anyone's curious about that,
Speaker 1 00:08:50 Doug, I might add that the, the 3D models show streets devoid of traffic.
Speaker 2 00:08:55 Yes, they do. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:08:56 They're, they're quite attractive <laugh>. Um, but, uh, those of us who live nearby know that, that, that traffic, uh, can be an issue. Well, let's talk a little bit, you know, and again, these, these are topics that have been hashed out repeatedly on the airwaves and in, in, um, meetings and, and the like, why, you know, why this, this big, um, development, what's the reason for the rationale for 3000 beds on campus? It's, it's probably worth talking bit about, about the housing situation.
Speaker 2 00:09:32 Yeah, absolutely. I, I appreciate how well you're grounding us in all of this because it's an important, uh, situation to understand. So, um, as the listeners are probably familiar with, we are experiencing a housing crisis, I mean, across California and have been for a long time in our town, in our city. Um, and that has to do with way more economic and political factors than I can possibly name. However, one driving factor is, uh, ucs c's, um, admittance of students without having enough housing on campus. Um, so their numbers don't match the amount of students they're letting in every single year. And, um, another issue though is that even when there is available housing on campus, and I went through this, I'm a U C S C alumni, housing on campus for a triplet where you're stuffed in with somebody else is so expensive, it's even more expensive compared to town. And town is on par with places like New York City. So, um, it creates this interesting phenomenon where students go looking for places to live in town. And I think in some ways this serves a certain landlord class of Santa Cruz because students just smush themselves into other really unsafe, moldy garage adu closet type of situations in town instead of on campus. Um, but that's just kind of been this like dysfunctional cycle that's replicated itself for many years now.
Speaker 1 00:11:07 Um, yeah, I've had shows before on, on housing issues, uh, you know, many, many of, uh, my fellow broadcasters have, have done the same thing. I mean, one could argue, of course, that the, the failure to fully address the issue of student housing is, has driven out the kind of people that are necessary for the city to run teachers and police and, you know, uh, first responders, right. Um, and, uh, so there is that particular issue that seems to me to be very important, but
Speaker 2 00:11:39 Oh,
Speaker 1 00:11:39 Absolutely. But, but the university made a commitment, as I recall, you know, to house a certain fraction of its students. I think it was 50 or 60% on campus. And it's, it's fairly far below that right now. Yes. What, what's the story there? Do you know?
Speaker 2 00:11:56 Uh, so I, I can speak to that. I'm curious, Bob, if you want to.
Speaker 3 00:12:01 Um, I, I can add a little bit there. Um, yeah, that there is, I think the number is 50% that the university is committed to housing 50% because, uh, U C S C knows about, I mean, there's, there's pressure on it to the university to be house more students and, um, especially offer more affordable housing for students. And that's certainly a very strong sort of demand on the university from, you know, current students, even faculty like myself and, um, you know, parents and alumni. Um, so yeah, that, that is definitely very strong position. And then we're, we're under that. And there's, there's also reasons that we could go into why U C S E is under that. We, um, maybe thinking about the East Campus Infill project, um, that was abandoned back in the early 20 teens. Um, I don't know if we want to go into that part of it at this point. Um, but
Speaker 1 00:13:04 Yeah, that's, that's actually kind of interesting. I didn't realize that it had been abandoned. I thought it was completed.
Speaker 3 00:13:11 Right. Yeah, no. Um, and this is through the wonderful research and archiving work that EMAC has done. Um, so on their website, their timelines and, and archives are very useful. Um, and, and they show that there was this project called the East Campus Infill Project back. Um, um, and actually, you know, it was, um, almost had the green light in the late OTs back in, uh, you know, um, 2008, 2009. Um, and the, uh, you know, they were, they were taking bids from contractors, and this would be, um, I'm actually not fully sure about this. I think it's in the Crown Merrill area. This is where it was slated to be. Um, and I know they did some other work on Merrill later on, but this is a, a separate project from that. Um, anyways, they were taking bids on it, and they were getting bids that were actually quite good, you know, for the university.
Speaker 3 00:14:15 Um, so it was going to be a economical, and it was supposed to have 600 beds project, and it was shelved for the, um, because of the recession. And then for reasons I'm not clear on, it was never picked up on again. And back in 2017 when this current plan was getting steam, um, EAC and others, um, including, um, a letter from a former regent as well as many uc SE professors and, um, like Jim Clifford, uh, fake Crosby, um, others, um, sent a letter to the university saying, explore the, the East Campus Infill Project. This is a good project. Um, this was at the very end of, um, the period where, um, Blumenthal was chancellor. And, um, so there was an opportunity at that, at sort of like when Blumenthal was ending and, um, current chancellor arrive was taking over to, to re-explore this east east campus infill. But that was, that was not taken up, unfortunately. And
Speaker 2 00:15:29 Can I add to that? I actually love that Bob is grounding us in sort of the, the chancellor ships, because I actually think this, uh, has a lot, lot to do with sort of the trends of what's possible and what happens. And I think that, um, I've, I have a various, uh, community organizing background in Santa Cruz, as well as one of the things I've done is organize, um, alongside the Alma Buton tribal band for more recognition and during the bell removal process, and something that really struck me at the bell removal process, because U C S C was there, and they, they U C S C and Chancellor arrive, I think any, any chancellor I've ever seen there in all my years of doing this loves, loves when it looks good, and they just love looking good. And so things like the, um, land acknowledgement, things like taking down the bell, symbolic things that make them look good are just what they're all about. And the thing about moving, like bulldozing basically a bad idea, which is what this is, is that it makes Cynthia arrive look really good that she's doing something about the housing crisis when it's not a thorough process and there's a lot of op there's been opportunity. What I wanna highlight is that Bob has of said that there was opportunity to consider other options that it just felt, has felt like the UT has not taken.
Speaker 1 00:16:51 All right. You're listening to sustainability now on K S Q D. I'm Ronnie Lipshutz, and my guest today are Nadja Paralta and Bob Maisler of Protect East Meadow, uh, up on the U C S E campus. And we've, we've just, uh, Nadja was just making some comments about, about, uh, university looking good, about, which I will say is that no university wants to look bad, and there are no universities that ever advertise such things, right? If they get caught in a scandal or somebody on the campus, you know, does something untoward, then they have to admit something's gone wrong. But I have never, in 30 years of, of, you know, being at U CSC and watching, watching the university, I've never seen any announcements that were in any way, uh, not highly positive. Um, and, you know, you can understand that what that is. Well, look, let me get, get back to some of these, some of these other issues, right. Um, why should people in, uh, Santa Cruz County and in the city actually be concerned about East Meadow as, as someone wrote this morning in the Sentinel, you know, there are 2000 acres. What's 17 acres? So, you know what, why is this an iconic site? I mean, what's, what's going on?
Speaker 2 00:18:12 It's interesting, we use the word iconic because I think our culture lacks, uh, comfortability with a relationship with land that's sacred, because I think that's a charged word because of the trauma from the Christian Church. But before that schism, uh, the idea that land is relational and that the land is sacred would have to do with the fact that it's a ch like powerfully charged place like the way a church or a synagogue or, um, things that we are more culturally comfortable with being powerfully charged. Places are. And so, sure, if you wanna put this into numbers, it's just 17 acres. But if you've actually stood in the middle of that place, or gone there to see the sunrise and the moon set at the same time, or noticed that, you know, Hagar and Coolidge are just arbitrary roads that have intersected this meadow, just like the Westlake neighborhood is a neighborhood that has only been there for the last 75 years.
Speaker 2 00:19:15 You start to see that that meadow is the top of a very intricate oak wooded grassland that went all the way from the meadow and the Great meadow down into what we call the West Lake neighborhood now. Um, and started and, you know, was part of this beautiful terrorist, uh, steps at, at the foot, at the kind of, you could think of it like the big toe of the Ben Loman mountain. And, um, during the Spanish colonization period, uh, that area was called because, uh, there are these incredibly mysterious and prolific springs that spring on Spring Street, um, at the Lutheran Church in people's backyards. It's a place where the water table's really high. And I mean, anyone who likes to walk at the PO knows that it's a very special place, and it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination even to see that.
Speaker 2 00:20:15 So the University of California came into owning this land, and at it, the inception of U C S C, there were certain values that were held about how they were gonna build, um, which included, uh, you know, low buildings, um, beautiful architecture, places that would inspire thought and would inspire creativity. And were part of this idealistic understanding of what a university is. And so, um, the u the what we call the East Meadow got spared in that building process because they wanted to build into the trees. Um, you know, the meadow gets a lot of sun and would, it's, uh, had been used previously as, um, grazing area anyway. And so not to, I, I hear a lot of retraction that, uh, the is not a pristine nature and, and like, it's this really degraded piece of land, and like, why, why are we talking about it as if it's this like special place that needs to be protected?
Speaker 2 00:21:15 But you know, that I just don't even see that as enough of a reason to not, um, be like, it's kind of remarkable that this meadow has withstood grazing, has withstood proximity to Corey Mining, has withstood, um, the uc buying this area. Um, and this meadow undoubtedly meant something important to the OAS was people of this place. It's a place where you can see the entire bay, you can see the western ocean and the southern ocean of the bay. You can see, um, everything. And it's, uh, so it's not just 17 acres, it's, it's, um, it also is quite possibly a really important spot for the water that trickles outta there. The city of Santa Cruz does not, does not use the water that comes out of Dero Creek and Laurel Creek, the creeks that that serves. Um, but we have no idea if we may need to use that water one day. The fact that that water runs even during the most intense moments of drought that we have had is very interesting, to say the least.
Speaker 1 00:22:15 So, so on ecological grounds, I suppose, uh, ecological and spiritual grounds,
Speaker 2 00:22:19 Absolutely. You
Speaker 1 00:22:20 Would, you would a argue.
Speaker 2 00:22:21 Yeah. And, and iconic, um, you asked iconic, so it's iconic because it's what you see when you first drive into U C S C.
Speaker 1 00:22:27 Yeah, no, I was gonna, I was gonna say, yeah, right. That's the first thing. But, but I do know that, uh, from, from my experience, you know, that when you drive into, well, this used to be the case you drove into campus and you couldn't find the university, people are always turning into family student housing, think not faculty
Speaker 2 00:22:43 Housing. Faculty housing,
Speaker 1 00:22:44 Yeah. Thinking that they found the campus, and they're always quite surprised. Um, um, but, uh, you know, I was thinking when I, when I use the term iconic, I wasn't thinking quite in those terms. I was thinking in terms of green belts mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? And, and over the 30, 50 years, what am I talking about? The 55 years, the campus has become this kind of, uh, almost, you know, civic sacred space, right? Which, which is supposed to be re remain as unobtrusive as possible. Um, which, you know, one can, one can, I think, fall either way on that. But, um, but I know that, that some people have been critical of the, the movement of your movement and others, um, and have said, you know, have accused people of, of actually racism for opposing housing, um, and basically, you know, forcing lower income students to move farther and farther out. And I mean, how do you respond to that? I, I'm playing devil's advocate. I hope that's okay. Oh, sure. How do you respond when some, if someone says that to you, how do you respond? Or maybe Bob has something to say about being inside.
Speaker 3 00:23:57 Sure. I could start on this one. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think I would respond in two ways. Um, the first of which is, um, at least from our group in the way that Nadia talked about it, um, our group is both very pro-housing justice and very pro, um, indigenous, so, uh, sovereignty and, um, like a decolonization of the university and beyond. So, and I, those things tend to get put as like, um, a contradiction with one another, but we see them as both, um, in, you know, you very important values that we hold and, and we don't think that it's a contradiction. And so, you know, thinking about the land as, um, you know, first of all, the u csc being un unseated, um, territory of the, uh, OWO West speaking people, um, that also reframes this conversation in important ways, um, that we're, we are, you know, attempting to do.
Speaker 3 00:25:05 And I think that perhaps that, um, that hasn't been done enough in this movement. Um, so that's part of it. The second part of it is that, um, the East Meadow housing, it's, it's not really gonna have any effect on the Santa Cruz housing market. It's not going to, um, produce more, um, like low income housing for students or for, you know, groups who have historically been, um, excluded, um, from the university. And so if, if the university wanted to do that, it would have, um, taken the, uh, the East Campus infill project more seriously because 140 beds, that's, that's, as Nadia is saying, that looks a lot better than, um, any effect that it has on the housing market.
Speaker 1 00:25:58 None of these projects will have a, a particularly significant effect. I, I mean, the 3000 bed odd beds are really catching up, right? And the university wants to enroll another 10,000 students according to the long-range development plan. So, uh, even if it builds the 3000, it, it'll be behind. Um, I know that the, the Kresge Rehabilitation project was presented as a completely new, sort of completely new housing, um, that I actually, I saw an ad in the Sentinel put there by the university, which basically presented it as a new housing development and not as the rehabilitation of an existing one. Um, you can hear folks that, that I am, I am sorry. I'm a skeptic too. I should be, I should be more balanced. During my last sabbatical, I wrote an institutional biography of U C S C, and so I read lots and lots of documents and, and, you know, making commitments and not for one reason or another, being able to fulfill them is kind of the stock of stock and trade of universities. They, they have grandiose visions, um, and then find that it's difficult for a variety of reasons to follow through on them. Do you wanna say something?
Speaker 2 00:27:15 I really do, uh, before we break, I, I think that's really interesting and a really great point that you bring up, Ronnie, because I, I just find it that it really insults our intelligence to think that then, um, it's like fair or appropriate to posit people who have traditionally been excluded against a meadow. I think it just actually creates this kind of interesting infighting mm-hmm. <affirmative> that really supports mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, keeping like those of us on the left really away from each other rather than being unified because, uh, like you're saying, like these grandiose promises are sort of the stock and trade of how they, they they operate, but these are real people's lives they're talking about. And I, I, I, I'm personally as a first gen college student who, you know, got to leave my economic situation, my, my home situation, which wasn't great at the time to go to U C S C, like take a lot of like, wow, you really think that I like, after this outstanding critical education that I got like, like fall for that one. Like, I just don't, I don't know, it doesn't really sit. Am I, I could talk more to that another time.
Speaker 1 00:28:22 You're listening to sustainability now. I'm Ronnie Lipitz, and I'm here with Naja Peralta and Bob Maisler who are, uh, came from the, uh, hold on a second. Protect East Meadow. Right. And I, I mentioned earlier there's also the East Meadow Action Committee, um, and, uh, we've been talking about university commitments and the failure to fulfill promises, but maybe we should go on to something a little bit different. Um, you attended the Regents meeting in March. I'm talking to Nadia at which the Regents approved the, uh, the proposal to, to go ahead with Student Housing West after five or six years of delay. Can you tell us anything about, you know, about that, what happened there?
Speaker 2 00:29:11 Sure. Uh, yeah, this is public domain, so you can, you two can go to the meeting in, uh, by watching a recording on YouTube. Um, they, you know, have to film those minutes and around minute four and a half of the second, or it must be the first day, second day, um, I actually can't remember. But, uh, you can watch the, this issue come up. So, um, uh, well actually this is them deciding and the, the previous day, I didn't actually watch the previous days once, but they speak about what they ta were talking about the previous day. A few things were really interesting. The first, um, was that Mayor Fred Keeley himself was there, um, uh, in support of building on the East Meadow. And, um, they, there was one, the, the Regents, the Regents have historically actually approved this. They fe you know, except one used to vote it down it this time, they unanimously approved it.
Speaker 2 00:30:15 And, um, I think it really just speaks to the intense pressure that they feel that they're under from, uh, everybody who is really desperate for housing, which is super understandable. Um, what was also interesting about the meeting was, um, I guess, you know, those were really just the points that stuck out was that the, the mayor had been there, um, you see that the regents are considering what to do about just the issue of Santa Cruz. Um, and yeah, chancellor Lari or Lari was there and was very, uh, excited about what this meant. Oh, I mean, we should, we should be clear. The, the regions were also clear that what they were approving this time around was that despite that this project being held up in litigation, they went ahead and approved, um, student bonds, uh, being used to just ram ahead with this project, even if it was to lose in court, which they'll have to retract if that's the case, and the students will have to pay back that debt.
Speaker 1 00:31:23 So, so, so you mentioned litigation and bonds and I, I was actually doing a little bit of reading today. So what, um, what's litigation is still pending.
Speaker 2 00:31:32 It's a little mysterious, uh, but it seems like there's one lawsuit still pending that recently, uh, lost but then has been reappeal in the courts here in Santa Cruz County. That has to do with, um, I think it's a group called Habitat and Community Watershed, who has been a long time opposed to the East Meadow and has taken up doing so, uh, through legal means. So they're still bringing this to court, basically.
Speaker 1 00:32:03 And, and what are the grounds, what are the grounds for their, for their lawsuit? Do you, I mean, judging for Habitat and Watershed Federal,
Speaker 2 00:32:11 Right? I believe it has to do with both of those things and the, the water in particular. Um, I, I, I, I wonder if you would know more, cuz I actually haven't read their things thoroughly cause I don't wanna speak where, I don't
Speaker 1 00:32:24 Know. No, well, I, I was doing some reading, but I couldn't find the original Oh yeah, the original complaint on the, on the website. So I'm not exactly sure. I know that, uh, at least one of the lawsuits had to do with, with, uh, water supply, um, and questions about who had jurisdiction and approval rights in terms of construction of increasing housing on campus. Uh, I'm not sure what the East Meadow Action Committee suit was, uh, exact was about. Exactly. Um, but you mentioned bonds, right? I mean, one of the issues around student housing West is how it will be financed, and it's an enormously expensive project. Um, when it started, the cost was half a billion dollars and I suspect now it's much closer to a billion for the whole thing, for all 3000 beds. Um, do you know anything about how it's going to be financed? Maybe, Bob, do you know anything about it? I'm
Speaker 3 00:33:23 Putting you on the spot. I really, I really don't know. Um, that, yeah, I haven't looked that extensively into the financing part of it.
Speaker 1 00:33:34 Well, uh, okay, so, so
Speaker 2 00:33:36 I have it here actually. Okay, good. Um,
Speaker 4 00:33:40 It looks like,
Speaker 2 00:33:44 So as I said, you know, the 17 acres, um, so as you're saying, actually I see here, I also have about a billion dollars now that this costs, which is just wild thinking about how much, and so my understanding is that, um, uh, it's really unusual that, um, the university would go ahead and, um, approve of, uh, moving forward to the project while it's being litigated because a bond is like sort of money that they project they will have or like an invested type of money. And so, um, risk basically, uh, makes that bond not like a safe investment for investors.
Speaker 1 00:34:37 The, the risk is that if the litigation, the is successful right? In stopping the project and the university has already sold bonds, that the bonds will then have no value, right? So, right. So investors, uh, the other, the, the flip side of it is if the university guarantees the bonds through student, uh, generated revenues, that seems pretty reliable, right? So, uh, I don't know what the interest rate is, but, but it's low risk. Yeah. So, so I think that's the, that's the catch,
Speaker 2 00:35:07 Right? Right. So typically it's these buyers who accept the litigation risk. And so since, um, that's unlikely for them to do with it being litigated, U CSE proposed to load the risk on to, its on-campus students. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that was basically the, the huge departure from common practice that happened. So the students would be made to bear the risk. And, um, if basically this fails in court, um, the project would and would basically not produce, produce any rent revenue. Cuz that's the promise is that this project produces rent revenue. Right. And then, um, all other students on campus rents would be increased to pay back this failed bond, which sounds
Speaker 1 00:35:54 Horrible. Yeah. Although it might be less than actually, uh, going through with the entire project. Well, let's talk about alternatives. Um, do, do you guys have any ideas about where family student housing might be cited instead? Have you thought about that?
Speaker 2 00:36:15 I have. Yeah. Um, I think that there's a little bit of hubris around just, I, I, I would think that family student housing could happen where it was supposed to happen on where the current family, student housing is, um, just at a smaller, small enough scale to appease the red-legged frog frog situation. There's also an idea of just breaking up family student housing. So you could do some family student housing there, some down at the property on 2100 Delaware or some at the already approved, um, Eastville, uh, campus spot, which as Bob said, is just above Crown ll the forest is there. Um, I I, while I find it a useful practice to come up with alternatives, I also think that, um, I don't know, I have this funny stubbornness that comes up sometimes, which is like, wow, people are paid hefty salaries to do this. Like, I'm, I'm just volunteering outta my heart to just like, you know, and I, it's really always funny to me, not that you're saying that at all, but just like how we as people are made to, to kind of come up with these things that people are paid six figures for, you know, is is kind of funny to me, <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:37:30 Well, let's be honest, when you pay somebody six figures, they're not gonna tell you you can't do it. Right? Yeah. And I think there's a virtue in, you know, in being able to say, well, you know, where, where could you put them? Put the students, you know, where else could you do it? And the, the regions bought, um, just recently bought, uh, Hilltop Apartments out on Western for a pretty penny that was a subject of, uh, a talk of the Bay that Chris Krone did at some point. Yeah. You know, I, I sort of remember it was at least 150 million. Um, now of course that doesn't, since it was mostly student occupied and now is student occupied, I don't know what impact that has on housing overall. But, you know, there are not just locations on campus, but, but potentially other places in town. Um, so I mean, it's useful to be able to say, well, you know, here's a possibility.
Speaker 2 00:38:26 Yeah. Which is why I list that 2100 Delaware site. And it's also why I think the, in housing, the infill project East would be great. Um, I think that there's, I I've gone to so many L R D P meetings, I, I can't think of one off the top of my head that I could cite, but I know they have, um, different infill projects planned for the next 20 years. And it could, could have been easily one of those, like, there's definitely a lot of options. So I, and I, I really hear what you're saying. And in the spirit of of that I, I agree <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:38:59 Yes. Well, um, I mean, one of the interesting things, of course is that student Housing West and the long-Range development plan are treated as two entirely independent endeavors. Right? That the long-range, the lrdp says nothing at all about that particular plan. Instead talks about building new colleges, um, which will also be extremely, extremely expensive. Well, what are your hopes then? I mean, you know, what are you gonna be doing?
Speaker 2 00:39:31 Yeah, good question. Um,
Speaker 4 00:39:35 Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:39:36 Well, I, I'd say in the immediate, it's just to keep offering nuance because I think that people can be creative. It's also about offering students more nuance and more opportunity to think imaginatively and creatively about housing options. Something that we have coming up in May is we're gonna, uh, be hosting, uh, a housing justice type of talk, uh, where we'll invite people to come talk about what that could look like. Um, people have great ideas, um, of what that could be. And, um, I think it's also just not giving up on, even though it's unlikely, the possibility that this won't work out because this is an important part of this campus's legacy, but also I think it's something that now at this point we are leaving for the younger generations, is, is this, this issue of, of nuance of where the money's going and who it's being used for of, um, not, I, I, it'd be one thing I think if, if I thought that this was really well thought through and there were no other options.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 But I think there are. And I think that Gradi creating a dichotomous situation where it's children and their families against a meadow is just this type of dichotomous thinking that I think is so emblematic of the times right now. And I, I know that this is often just thought about as an environmental issue, but I think this is really a political issue. It's a spiritual issue. It's an issue of how are we gonna really live here together, not just with each other as people, but with the water, with the plants, with the land. Can we break our sense of categorization about these things? And really, I think children can, I think that the next generations will. And I think that even if this fight is deemed as like lost or doesn't come out as, you know, protecting the East Meadow as we see it today, even though I really, really still think it's possible that the meadow, that there's some kind of like paradigmatic change that is fed and, um, developed when we slow down these things, when we take this active care about our community and about our future and about what it means to care for places now for the, for the people, for the children that are coming.
Speaker 1 00:42:10 Hmm. And you are listening to sustainability now. I'm Ronnie Lipchitz and my guests today. Guests today are Nadja Peralta and Bob Maisler of Protect East Meadow. And, um, in the last portion of the show, uh, Bob and Naia want to tell us some more about their organization. So go ahead, Nadja.
Speaker 2 00:42:30 Thanks. Um, and Bob, and write you to jump in on this, please. Uh, so, uh, yeah, kind of as we said at the beginning of the show, protect East Meadow came about, um, less than a year ago, last July. And, um, we're gonna just keep hosting stuff around the meadow, um, and to do with the meadow. And we've already done some things like, um, we had a Sweet Meadow walk where we learned about the natural history of the water and the hydrology of the area. And, um, we, uh, Bob and I got to both be, uh, guest speakers in an art and environmental practice class at U C S C just a month ago. Um, and something that I think is really awesome about what we've done and what we will do is, is I'm always just struck by how many people don't know these things and don't know about, um, the hydrology of the area or want to know more and are so curious and excited when, um, they learn ab that you can see the sunrise in the moon set at that place.
Speaker 2 00:43:43 Um, and, uh, we also have just a really diverse and sweet group of people that is part of our working group. And we're always open and looking for more people. So we have best way to get ahold of us is through a direct message on Instagram at Protect East Meadow. Um, and, uh, please come check it out if you'd like and you're welcome to join our meetings. And, um, we try to just take on what feels best and most productive in the moment and support each other in that. And so, um, something that I felt would be really wonderful, uh, while we still have the meadow as it is, is to take children into the meadow and start looking for the Western burrowing owl who, um, is supposed supposed to be in the meadow and was last seen there in 2018. And, um, they haven't been seen again. And for all we know they're still there. It's just that no one's looked. And the meadow is very big. So, um, who better than to find a small seven to 10 inch owl that burrows than young children?
Speaker 1 00:44:52 Where, where, where on the meadow, where they, where did they live? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I I've heard about them for, for decades.
Speaker 2 00:44:57 Decades.
Speaker 1 00:44:57 Decades. Yeah. I've never seen any.
Speaker 2 00:44:59 Yeah. They would be tough to see because they, um, would come for their breeding season between about now through, or like February through May mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they are, we're typically seen kind of more in the upper part of the meadow where it starts to slope up. Yeah. And they're interesting creatures. They're interesting owls cuz they don't live in trees and they, um, they appropriate old squirrel burrows and, um, rather than making their own and they look like a furby, they're so cute. And they, uh, um, are under threatened to, into extinction because of overdevelopment in California, unfortunately, um, California Coastal Commission and Fish and Wildlife has a bad habit of approving development sites that allow for, uh, moving them. Uh, so, but they are considered threatened. Um, and if they were there, that would be interesting. So mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. We, uh, I didn't tell the children where they had been previously seen just that they were supposed to be in there. And, um, they, the kids I was with around that meadow, that giant meadow in like 20 minutes, it was incredible. They were, they were nine years old, they were just able to run the entire meadow and they found some promising burrows that I'm excited to set some cameras up at. And, um, just to see what's
Speaker 1 00:46:25 There, what, what, what's, do you look for al Skat or,
Speaker 2 00:46:27 Or we look for Al Skat, we look for signs of that they're nesting. Mm-hmm. Um, mm-hmm. <affirmative> and also just like what looks like could be a, a abandoned, um, previous, uh, squirrel den. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so didn't see the scat, but saw some promising dens. So I think we ran out time. I had to take 'em back to their parents. So I think that will, uh, look for the scat next time and I'll show them what that looks like. They're amazing at finding things
Speaker 1 00:46:55 <laugh>. What, what, and, and so, so, you know, I mean, this housing issue isn't going to go away. Right. And the university is probably, well, we know it wants to build, build on campus. Have have you, has your organiz your group thought anything about the future?
Speaker 2 00:47:10 Do you wanna answer that Bob?
Speaker 3 00:47:13 Um, yeah, like, Ronnie, is that question directed to like, the future of housing? Well, on U C S E,
Speaker 1 00:47:20 You know, the, the campus look, I mean, east Meadow is a special place. The campus as a whole, you know, is really, uh, uh, has this sort of symbolic value to the city and and beyond, uh, which goes far beyond its utilitarian purpose, you know, as a university. Um, and I think a lot of concern in the community about what's going on up there is not so much, uh, well, it's, it's, you know, disrupting, disrupting the, the city on the hill as it were, right. That city on the hill image, which is really not appropriate anymore. So the university is gonna come forth with future plans. Right. And one of the questions will be where to build, what to build, how to build it. Right. And even now, even with the L R D P having been approved, there's still is opportunity, I think, to intervene in some of the design questions now, have you thought about anything like that? I'm leading, I'm giving you leading questions here and I apologize if that's, uh, <laugh> Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:48:26 Consultant, but that Yeah. You know, I think we, our group does think about those questions. Uh, over the past year we've been, you know, trying to, we've looked backwards, you know, looked to the past to see how, how, how have we gotten into this position and what we can we do in the present, the, the great events that Nadia has talked about, um, looking to the future. Yeah, I, I mean, I think we're, we are fortunate to be at Santa Cruz and, um, the ways in which, you know, historically important movements, uh, around housing justice, around cost of living. And I'm, you know, I'm thinking recently about the, the grad student wildcat strike that, you know, eventually turned into a, a statewide UAW campaign. Um, even myself within the A f t our, uh, union had a historic campaign as well for a contract. And, um, I think what in my position I'm looking forward to is, is these groups having more of a say in the decisions that you're talking about.
Speaker 3 00:49:36 So as a, you know, as a lecturer, I have my ideas, but what's, what's actually most important to me is have these decisions, you know, have a real good public discourse and, and, you know, debate around it. And I really, I really feel like that was missing. Um, looking back to the public, um, you know, the, the different periods where there was some time for public, um, comment, those were really presented very quickly. And, um, looking at EMAX archiving, there was a lot of criticism for this project that doesn't seem to have been integrated into the decision making. So I don't know exactly what the housing looked like. And I, and I know that these, there's certain tensions here that are really challenging. Um, but promoting that, not only all those groups, but that groups in Santa Cruz. And I think that's where our group has been somewhat successful, is trying to bridge Santa Cruz with U C S C through the, the classes that Nadia's talked about, the events. And we've, we've been organizing through free school Santa Cruz as well, to, to try to have all these voices at the table.
Speaker 1 00:50:49 Well, we're out of time, but I want to thank you Naja Paralta and Bob Maisler of Protect East Meadow for being my guests on sustainability now.
Speaker 2 00:50:57 It was such a joy to be here. Thank you for hosting this type of free speech, dialogue and radio. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 00:51:02 Okay,
Speaker 3 00:51:02 Thank you, Ronnie. You're welcome.
Speaker 1 00:51:05 If you'd like to listen to previous shows, you can find them at k squid.org/sustainability now, and Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Pockets among other podcast sites. So thanks for listening and thanks to all the staff and volunteers who make K Squid your community radio station and keep it going. And so until next, every other Sunday, sustainability, now
Speaker 0 00:51:28 Good planets, a hard final tempera zones and tropics climbs, thriving, blowing sunshine. Good planets are hard to.
