Electric Vehicles on the Road and in Our Future

Speaker 2 00:00:04 Riding Speaker 3 00:00:05 Along my automobile, my baby beside me at the wheel. I stole a kiss at the turn of mile, my curiosity, running wild cruising and playing the radio with no particular place to Speaker 0 00:00:51 Good evening case squid listeners. It's every other Sunday again. And you're listening to sustainability now, a radio show focused on environment, sustainability and social justice in the Monterey Bay region, California and the world. That, of course, was Chuck Berry with his, uh, world famous, no particular place to go. And tonight we're going to be talking about automobiles. In September, California, governor Gavin Newsom issued an executive order requiring that by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in the state will have to be zero emission vehicles producing no greenhouse gases. While there are various types of zero emission vehicle power plants in existence and on the design boards, most of these zero emission cars will probably be electric vehicles or EVs. This goes along with a parallel push to electrify the state by 2045. Getting from here to there will be no easy task. And my guest today is Beverly Des Show, president of the Electric Auto Association of Califor, the California Central Coast. We're gonna talk about electric vehicles, past, present, and future, and how they could become a feature of our future as common as today's fossil fuel dinosaurs. So, Beverly, welcome to sustainability now. Speaker 1 00:02:07 Hi, Ronnie. Great to be here with you. Speaker 0 00:02:11 Um, so why don't we start by by talking about what exactly is an electric vehicle and how do they work? Speaker 1 00:02:20 Well, I'm not a technician, but I'm gonna give you my best version, which is that it doesn't have a gas motor, uh, that's fueled by gasoline, that's all removed. It has a motor that is way more efficient than the, than the, uh, than the engine. And it's fueled by plugging into electricity, which fuels the batteries that runs the vehicle. That's an electric vehicle. Speaker 0 00:02:53 Okay. Speaker 1 00:02:54 Yeah. Speaker 0 00:02:54 Well, I know your, your professional life doesn't involve, uh, automobile. So how did you get to be interested in electric vehicles? Speaker 1 00:03:03 Well, a couple ways. One is, um, I first saw the T zero, which we'll talk about later, uh, at a, at some event in Santa Cruz. And I went, wow, that is very cool. Then some years later, uh, the, the local Electric Auto Association group, central Coast, before I was the president, uh, was putting on an event and they had a prototype of the first Tesla Roadster, and that was in oh seven before they were in major production. And I just said, wow, that is very cool. I, they were talking all about it, and it was very cool. And around the same time, our city was also, uh, doing its climate assessment. You know, it's, excuse me, it's emissions assessment. And it was coming up that at least 60% of our emissions in the city and the county were coming from vehicles. And I was looking for projects to do in sustainability and said, okay, I think this is, this is what I want to do because it will have the greatest impact. Speaker 1 00:04:14 And since then, um, other, other, uh, municipalities in the region have come up with 70%. Our, uh, our alternative electricity producer has said 82%. But I think, um, you know, many things are exa, you know, uh, they aren't able to be included because they don't have ways to quantify them. So I think it's maybe not quite 82%, because I think there are many things that haven't been quantified to figure into it. So I just said that's the biggest impact that I could have, is to, is to work with that. And, um, it's immediate, you know, people can buy an electric vehicle and they're immediately making an impact. Yeah. Oh, and the other thing is that people are not getting outta their cars anytime soon. I mean, really. Instead they're just buying more and more vehicles. So that, Speaker 0 00:05:06 Well, I wanna, I want to get to that a little bit later, but you mentioned 82%, and I wasn't quite sure. 82% of what? Speaker 1 00:05:14 82% of our emissions are, uh, alleged Speaker 0 00:05:17 Of ve Okay. To Speaker 1 00:05:18 Be from vehicles according to vehicles, uh, three ce. Speaker 0 00:05:24 Got it, got it. Yeah. Okay. So, um, you mentioned the Electric Auto Association of the California Central Coast, of which you're president. What does the group do? Speaker 1 00:05:35 We're, um, an educational event, excuse me, an educational organization. Think originally it's been in existence for over 50 years. It was, uh, electrical engineers who were putting electric vehicles on the moon, and they said, Hey, um, if we're putting 'em on the moon, maybe we could put them on the earth. And so they began converting gas cars to electric cars, and I think it was basically like a support club, you know, oh, we found some parts over here that we could do this. They were converting them in their garages, which I called geeks and garages. And, um, they were getting maybe 30 miles or something, but it was basically a group to support themselves in, in making electric vehicles. And then it became, um, an educa, you know, more of an educational outreach as we were getting, uh, some electric vehicles in the nineties, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Speaker 1 00:06:28 And so that's what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we'd do, we'd do educational events, and we used to be just, we'd show up to certain events. People would, we'd, people would have an event and, and we'd show up with a couple of electric vehicles and people would like Wow. And so I could educate them. And, um, then we started partnering. The Electric Auto Association started partnering with, uh, plug-in America and the Sierra Club to do national events. So this is our 10th year of doing National Drive Electric Week. It originally was plugin day, and we used to show up to Earth Day, and now that's become national as well. And I'm actually pushing to do next year, although we're not gonna do next year, it'll probably be the following year, we'll do international Drive Electric Week for as many, as many countries as we can get. We have had a number of countries join us, and that's what seemed like a natural transition to just call it, to just make it into International Drive Electric Week. Speaker 0 00:07:25 Yeah. You mentioned, um, that, that it was the Tesla that got you hooked on these things. Do you, do you drive a Tesla? Speaker 1 00:07:33 I wish <laugh>? No, I wish Speaker 0 00:07:35 I did. What do you have, sir? What Speaker 1 00:07:39 Do you drive? I have a Chevy. I have a Chevy Spark. It is the precursor to the Chevy Bolt. They only made them for a, a few years. They're actually still making them in gas cars, but, uh, yeah. And it's a shorter range. Oh, strange vehicle. It's, it's like the range, the range was guaranteed to be 85, but I actually got on, on good days. I would get up to a hundred. And I'm still, after seven years of it being on the road, I am still getting in the nineties. Except if it's really cold, the batteries don't love the cold, so it might get a little bit less, but it's been amazing at, at keeping its distance, keeping its range. Speaker 0 00:08:19 Huh. Um, that's 90 miles per charge, right? Speaker 1 00:08:23 Yes, per charge. It's, it's actually more closer to a hundred, but yeah. Speaker 0 00:08:27 Do you, do you, do you have any idea what that translates to in terms of, you know, the cost per mile? Have you tried to calculate that? Speaker 1 00:08:36 Somebody's calculated it, but it's not me. <laugh>, I don't have that. It's not you, but I can say don't have, I can say that I told you not to f me numbers <laugh>. Um, what I can say is that, um, I do all of my, you know, what I'm not doing on my bicycle, which isn't very much these days, but I do all of my around town and, you know, through, down, down to Monterey, over to San Jose, that kind of range. I do all of that. And it's not costing me more than $10 a month compared to, I would be paying at least $75 by now a month for gasoline. So if that's any big comparison, Speaker 0 00:09:15 Well, that no, that gives, that, that gives us an idea. Um, you know, I thought, I think it's pretty, it's pretty interesting and pretty cool that the club was founded by NASA engineers who were putting electric vehicles on the moon. Uh, we could, and, and those were pretty expensive vehicles, I imagine. Um, I would imagine. But, but they weren't the ones, they weren't the ones to first come up with electric vehicles. Do you know anything about, about the history of electric vehicles and why gasoline won out over electricity and steam powered cars? Speaker 1 00:09:49 Right. Yeah. Yeah. In the early 19 hundreds, um, there were all, there were gas EVs and, and steam engines. And, um, the EVs were actually, of course, as they are now quieter and cleaner smelling and all of that. And, um, there were a couple things that happened. One is that, uh, in, I think it was around 1914, uh, they started making roads. They started making highways, and people wanted to go, and they, uh, had discovered very cheap oil in Texas. And so, um, and, and people in the countryside did not have electricity, so it really didn't work for them. But the gasoline was very, very cheap. As, as were the cars, the cars were half the price. Uh, the, the, uh, gas cars were half the price of the EVs, and they could go farther using the gas. And also there was the, uh, thing of that gas was originally a byproduct. It was a waste product, actually, of kerosene, and they didn't know what to do with it. And then they found this nice way to stash their, their dirty stuff into vehicles. Speaker 0 00:11:03 Okay. Well, um, so let's talk a little bit about, about Gavin Newsom's zero emission vehicle plan. What, what's, what, what do you think about it? Is it a fantasy and what would need to happen to actually make it go? Speaker 1 00:11:19 Um, that's a really good question, and I actually didn't finish the progression, but we could go back to that of, of, uh, the development of the, of the various EVs going back from the guest, I guess maybe wanna talk about that later. But, um, well, I think if we hadn't had the pandemic, our governor had big plans, and one of the arguments about his plan is, well, what about all these, all this gas industry that we have here that's propping up our, making us the fifth largest economy in the world, what's he gonna do about that? And I frankly don't know what he was going to do about that, but it's seeming like most people's strategies are that we are just ramp trying to ramp up electric of all sorts, electric vehicles, electric elect, uh, electrification in the homes of, you know, of heat pumps and pop heat, hot water, heat pumps, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Speaker 1 00:12:16 And, um, I think the strategy maybe is that we'll just, uh, push them out by having, having things be, uh, electrified and having the grid be, become renewable. That's what we're working on also in California. But as far as how we're going to get there, yes, we're asking the same question. The, um, California Energy Commission is doing a lot. They're, they have, uh, given a lot of money, millions of dollars to ev charging infrastructure around the state. And, um, electrify America has also done the same. They've put in a lot of charging stations. <inaudible>, of course, is putting in their own charging stations all over the country. And, um, you know, so that's to inspire people to do it. And there are incentives, but we feel there aren't enough incentives. People say, well, you shouldn't be, you know, having to incentivize. But the oil industry is enormously incentivized. Speaker 1 00:13:15 And if we could divert the incentives from, from the gas fired, uh, vehicles, then we would have more incentives for, to make them more accessible for people. But with, with the mandates, people simply aren't going to be selling them in the state anymore. We will have lots of vehicles on the road still, but also carb, the California Air Resources Board is, uh, is making mandates for medium and heavy duty trucks. They have the A C T that they just mm-hmm. Passed, which is the advanced clean trucks. Mm-hmm. And they are phasing them out, but they aren't phasing them out, like making the trucks do it. They're just, uh, phasing out, selling them. So hopefully people who are wise will be electrifying their fleet when they have to replace their vehicles. And so, I, I don't know how we're going to get there, but you're reminding me that I want to contact him and say, Hey, what's up? How are you, how are you planning for us to do this? And I think we Speaker 0 00:14:16 Didn't Speaker 1 00:14:17 Have the pandemic. Yeah. I think if we didn't have the pandemic that we would've seen a whole lot more. But he's really our governor and the whole government is ha the whole country is having to just deal with that as a priority. Sure. Speaker 0 00:14:30 Yeah. Sure. Uh, I need to take a break. Okay. So, uh, you're listening to sustainability now on K S Q D, 90.7 FM and KS Q D streaming on the internet, your ink spot on the radio dial. Emily, Speaker 4 00:14:47 Let's wear our mask when we go out around, around the town, the town, wear our masks and stay apart, beat the covid down. We'll do our part, stay apart, do our best with all our parts, and protect ourselves, our neighbors, too. It's the right thing to do. Together, together, together. We'll get over this, the Covid mess together. We'll put, put the virus down where our masks, when we go out around, around the town, the town, wear our mask. Stay apart, beat the, Speaker 0 00:15:52 Well, you heard that jingle here on sustainability. Now it's going to gonna be an, an earworm for the next few minutes. Uh, so you're listening to a sustainability. Now. This is Ronnie Lipschitz, and my guest today is Beverly Des Show President of the Electric Auto Association of the California Central Coast. We're talking about electric vehicles. Uh, Beverly, I wanna, I wanna confess a sin. And that is that, uh, I drive a gasoline powered car. And when we went out to buy a car about, trust me, yeah, I <laugh> may I culpa, when we went out to buy, to buy a car five years ago, replace our older one. You know, I was, I looked at the economics, and what I found at the time was that over the lifetime of the car, the, uh, the well at the time, you know, we were looking at hybrids, the cost was, uh, was much more, and I wasn't feeling very virtuous, which I should be, I should do, right? But so, so the upfront cost of EVs is still pretty stiff. And, um, what, what kind of policies are in place to encourage ev ownership in the face of those prices? I mean, what's the prospects of, of the cost coming down? Speaker 1 00:17:10 Right? Yeah, that's a really good question. And that's a question that we get all the time. Um, well, for one thing, um, let me sort of start at the end here, which is that Elon Musk just had what he called Battery Day a couple of months ago, announcing the advances that they had made. Battery technology is, is fairly, is fairly in its infancy. Not a lot has happened. And so that will, that will determine the cost of the vehicle as the ba So, so what he announced at Battery Day was that they had come up with some new technology that, um, just one portion of it would increase the energy density by five times and the power by six times and increase the range by 16%. And they had several other measures, and they had people all in their electric vehicles outside honking every time they were listening. Speaker 1 00:18:11 And they were, they didn't have, I think it was because of the pandemic, everybody was outside and everybody would honk Hong Kong con. So what his goal is now is to have a $25,000 ev he had a goal before the $35,000 ev. And, um, and he accomplished it, but then had to add on a little bit more. So they've gone up. And the other thing is that, so, so the price is coming down, the batteries are becoming more efficient, and the price is coming down. There are, um, there are federal, state, and local incentives. The Monterey Bay Air Resources District has been very supportive also of the adoption of electric vehicles. They're in charge of how our air go, how our air is. And they've, uh, they give incentives locally for buying an, an EV and all EV or a hybrid. And, um, the state offers a number of thousands of dollars, depending on your income, you can get double your, um, double the, the rebates if you are low income. Speaker 1 00:19:23 And the federal government had some for all vehicles, but then they decided to put a cap on it and say, well, we decided only, only 200,000 vehicles per, uh, uh, for this incentive. And then it goes away for that manufacturer. So Tesla, Chevy, and Nissan being the early adopters for, you know, the early manufacturers, um, theirs went out. But the other, the other manufacturers still have a 700, uh, excuse me, a $7,500 tax credit, which means you have to owe that amount to the federal government, and they will take that off your tax. The others are actual checks in the mail that you get for, um, as rebates. So there's that. And there's also used electric vehicles. I've been promoting them forever, you know, for the last few years, I should say, not forever. Um, and now the longer range vehicles, such as the Chevy Vol, excuse me, the Chevy Bolt, um, they're coming on the market at very low cost because the technology is changing so quickly that people are getting rid of them and upgrading to the next level. Speaker 1 00:20:35 And so, um, there are now even some incentives for used vehicles from our air district, for example. And so we are promoting, um, people buying used vehicles. Um, my vehicle, I bought actually one year old, I bought it on eBay for a greatly reduced price. The Teslas are the only ones that are really holding their value. The others, the prices are plummeting very quickly. So it's not good for the owner trying to sell it, but it's good for people trying to buy, to buy a, a vehicle. And one of our local agencies just got a big grant from Electrify America to in fact, educate, uh, low income and underserved communities with, you know, with the, the point being for equity, um, these, these communities have not been served and, uh, supporting them in, in learning about getting used, used electric vehicles. So it's accessible to them as well. Speaker 0 00:21:37 Yeah. But I I, is there a risk to, uh, when people buy used vehicles that, you know, the battery might, uh, go out on them? Yes. Or something like that? Speaker 1 00:21:47 Like there are, especially, yes, of course there are. So that's, that's something of what we do. Our organizations, you know, help people with that kind of thing. Um, the early Nissan Leafs, uh, well actually all of the Nissan Leafs, but the problem that the early Nissan Leafs had was that they only have an air cool system on the battery pack, and so they can heat up, and when they heat up, there's a rapid degradation of the battery, um, life. And so some of the early, so in, we don't recommend buying the early Nissan leave, and it's something that you should have checked out, um, to make sure that you're getting something. But also the prices have come down, the prices have halved for what it would cost to have a battery replacement, so you could now get a battery replacement for $2,500. And what you're looking at there, and what it's, what's useful for people to look at is that you're paying for your fuel mostly upfront. Instead of all the money that you'll be paying for gas, you're paying for your battery upfront, and there's hardly any maintenance. There are not many moving parts to electric vehicle motor, so, uh, there's not much maintenance, so you save money there. Speaker 0 00:23:05 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, you mentioned that, uh, you know, you mentioned about, about low income drivers, and, uh, of course, newsom's order only has to do with new cars. It doesn't take older ones off the road, um, yet anyway. And, and we know that low income households tend to hold on longer to more polluting vehicles. So, um, you know, the, the education is great, but are there, are there actually incentives, you know, tax and other credits to, uh, to low income drivers that might encourage them to, uh, to buy electric vehicles? Speaker 1 00:23:44 Well, as I said, our air district is offering, um, a, a small rebate. Most, uh, air districts do not, there are two other air districts in this, in the, in the state who do, and they are, but the cost is so cheap for a used electric vehicle, you can get a used vehicle for some have gotten them as low as $5,000. So, but I would say mm-hmm. <affirmative> more in the range of between seven and $15,000 with very low miles on them. Like you can get them, uh, 30, 40,000 miles on them. So they have a lot of life left in them. And as I said, there's not much maintenance on the vehicle itself. And so someone who's buying it, who doesn't have a lot of money, should definitely get someone who knows what they're doing to help them to check it out, to make sure they're not gonna get something that the battery is all, all the way complete depleted. Speaker 0 00:24:41 Well, not to rain on the parade, but of course, uh, as people who can afford 'em buy electric vehicles and abandon their gasoline powered cars, those are gonna go, those are gonna crash in price. So, uh, there's always, there's, there's gonna be that problem as well. But we don't have to, we don't have to, uh, to get into that <laugh>. Um, you know, we were talking a little earlier about, about the transition issue, and obviously the, uh, there's a kind of a, uh, a circular problem here, which is, uh, that to have enough chargers, you have to have a substantial demand for chargers, right? Right. And in order to have that demand for charges, you have to have a substantial number of electric vehicles on the road, right. Um, especially, especially if in terms of, of, you know, extending the range. So, so, um, aside from, aside from these incentives, you know, what, what, can you imagine anything else that might motivate people to actually do, do this shift? Yeah, I mean, of course, if there's nothing available, right? If, if all all that is available are new electric vehicles, well, you won't have a choice, essentially. Uh, right. But, but again, we, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Speaker 1 00:26:04 How, how, no, Speaker 0 00:26:05 You go ahead. Speaker 1 00:26:06 What, what makes sense for people is mostly what's a good deal. Like we, the people who are doing the education and the early adopters, we are mm-hmm. <affirmative> environmentalists. So we suffer a little <laugh>, you know, with not having enough, well charging stations and like that. But as they become more affordable, and especially the used ones, as they become more affordable, it's just people will just buy what's, what's a better deal for them. And when they understand, when they have the education to understand that in the long run, they do cost a lot more. Five years ago, no, that was maybe not the case, but now that is the case. And the thing about charging stations, most people are charging at home, and most people are driving at the most between 27 and 40 miles a day, and I don't even drive that much a day. And so, right. Speaker 1 00:26:59 They don't need it. They're plugging in at night and or they, you know, they have a charging station. I mean, that's something to consider before buying. So two people who, who, uh, have helped us with our events, they just bought, they just bought them, and they don't have charging stations at their house, but where they work, they have charging stations there, and they have a really long range. They don't drive that much. So they have a long range. It's not an issue if once a week you, you go somewhere and you sit there for a few hours and plug in, you know, or a couple of hours, whatever, then, then you have it handled. So, but for long distance, that's what I said. There are the, the, um, California Energy Commission. Um, so the people in the Electric Auto Association actually consulted with, I believe it was people in the CEC to help them to figure out the West Coast Electric Highway. Speaker 1 00:27:57 So there are charging stations within safe enough distances that most vehicles could make it. And you plan out just as you do, you know, when you're on the, when you're driving through the mountains, you go, Hmm, I better get some gas now before I do this long trek before the next gas station comes. Right? So you plan it out, uh, ahead of time and as the, they're just more and more coming, becoming available. The Cal E V I P is the, um, California Energy Commission and Electrify America. Their money is coming. And, uh, some of the, uh, electric vehicle owner, um, manufacturers are starting to, GM is actually starting to put some charging stations in. So those are incentives. And the other, I don't know if you're leading me to tell you about this particular incentive, um, what one of our colleagues, so Will Beckett is my, um, vice president of the Electric Gato Association. Speaker 1 00:28:56 He's actually the founder of this chapter. He was part of those original people over in Silicon Valley who started, um, the Electric Auto Association. And, um, he came to, he moved to the area, and with Jay Friedland, they started the, uh, central Coast chapter. He has what he's done. So he's kind of geeky and he can do these things. Although he is not an actual electrical engineer, he has taken an inverter and attached it to his car battery. And during, uh, a, a three day power shutoff, he was able to power his home and keep his refrigerator going, and his computers going, going and his cell phone charged and all of that. Not a hot tub or anything, you know, it wasn't that it wasn't using any kind of big pool on the energy, but, um, he was able to, to run his house for three days and only use 20 miles worth of his battery. So to me, that is an enormous incentive for people, especially with all these psps events, for people to be able to have the battery back up from their own vehicle in their own house, to run their own house. Speaker 0 00:30:12 Let's come back to that. I, we need to, I need, I need to take a break, but I, I'd like to pursue that particular topic. Yeah. You're listening to KS Q D 97 point 90.7 FM on your radio dial and ksq d.org streaming on the internet. Over to you, Emily. Speaker 5 00:30:32 As we often say here at KS Q D, we are many voices at one station, but we need each other. You need us to keep you informed and connected to our community through the good times and the bad times, and we need you to listen and contribute to keep us up to date on what's happening out there in the real time that only radio can provide. But we also need your financial contribution to keep us on the air 24 7. Please donate by visiting ks qd.org and clicking on support. Speaker 0 00:31:15 You're listening to Sustainability Now. This is Ronnie Lipchitz, your host, and I'm speaking today with Beverly De Show President of the Electric Auto Association of the California Central Coast. We've been talking about, about EVs and, and running households on batteries. Before we go on, you mentioned Electric Highway, and I'm, I'm reminded that 40 or 50 years ago, the, the, uh, highways of the future were supposed to have conduits embedded in the concrete, and cars would basically pick up their electricity from the conduit through some kind of magnetic connection. Uh, but that one never took off. Um, it's much too expensive. So, uh, let's get back to the, um, what you were talking about. How does, how does will charge his car? Speaker 1 00:32:02 He uses his charge cord and plugs it into his wall. He, Speaker 0 00:32:08 And so he doesn't have a, he doesn't, his house is, he has a, so, well, that's what I was fishing for, right? Yes. He has solar, completely Speaker 1 00:32:14 Solar, his house is completely solar, but he is hooked to the grid. So when the grid goes down, his house goes down. So some, now, now, what people have, and this is only very recently, they have the ability to uncouple from the grid before it was like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you're hooked to the grid so that you have, when the sun goes down, you have electricity at night that is coming from the grid, then when the grid goes down, you go down. But now they have the ability to, to uncouple from the grid when it goes down and go something else. So, um, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we also had, so I, I did, um, a webinar for our national Drive electric Week. Uh, this year we were all online to, for safety reasons. It's the first time we've ever done it. And what a disaster it was with some of our zooms. Speaker 1 00:33:03 But, um, so we, we did first, uh, will did a presentation on that of how he has his, uh, his inverter hooked to his vehicle. And by the way, it, it is not hooked to the ve the batteries that move his car because it's too high voltage, it's hooked to his accessory battery. He turned on his car and allowed his car to keep charging the 12 volt battery that, that powers the, um, accessories and ran it that way. So he was unable to keep his, his house functioning. And then the next, per, the next person that we had in our webinar was, um, was, uh, Michael Mora, who is, um, a solar guy. So he's got huge batteries set, set, set up all over his property because he lives out in the boonies and his electricity goes off all the time. And he and his wife have medical devices that they need to rely on. So he's got battery backup, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> the same thing. He's got it so that when, when the grid goes down, boom, it just, his system just disconnects and go, goes into his battery packs to, to power the house. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:34:14 Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what, what about people who don't have solar on their roofs? You know, where does the power power come from? I mean, this was a question that you had raised with me about dirty versus clean, you know, power from the grid. Speaker 1 00:34:29 Right? Right. So that's one of the questions that comes up a lot for us. They go, well, you're just plugged into the grid anyway. So what's the difference? You're still getting powered by either Cole or by by gas. So first of all, electric vehicles are way more efficient. They use a lot less power. So even if they are plugged into the dirtiest of grid, they will have at least 50% reduction in the energy usage. So right there, your reducing your footprint in that way. The other thing is that many people who have had solar systems, solar PD systems on their house, they go, Hey, why am I paying for gas? And they get an electric vehicle. And vice versa. When somebody has electric vehicle, they go, Hey, why am I plugging just into the grid? And they put solar on their house. So everyone who has solar, who's hooked into the grid, which is almost everyone, and you know, there are people who are very remote who are not hooked into the grid, and they're just, um, islanded. Speaker 1 00:35:31 But, um, everyone who has solar on their roof is putting that solar into the, the grid and greening the grid up, cleaning it up, making it more renewable with no cost to the utility or any customers. It's, and the other thing is that those of us who, many of us are working also with our energy provider provider to encourage them, I guess you could say, to encourage them to become more renewable, we're going through our, uh, various municipalities and through especially our CCAs, our community choice aggregators, they're 21 in the state of California. They are buying electricity with the intention of ramping up renewables to clean renewables and ideally locally. But that hasn't been so success, that part hasn't been so successful for the purpose of greening the grid so that the greener the grid becomes, the, the greener you're driving becomes, you're plugging into a, a grid that's completely, that will, you know, ultimately we, California also has a zero carbon, um, by 2045. So hopefully Right. That all gets handled by then as well. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:36:50 Right. Um, well, let's talk, let's talk about, about, uh, before, before we go on to some other questions that I have. Um, uh, let's talk about V to G. What does that mean? Yeah. And, and how does it work? Speaker 1 00:37:04 Yeah. So it's, it's sort of the next step after V to H, which is what Will's doing his vehicle to home or vehicle to building. Sometimes they just call it v tob. Um, V to G is where the power from your battery can go into the grid and power the grid. And, um, so the first, the company who made, do you mind if I take a step back and, and talk about, Speaker 0 00:37:36 Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. Sure. Speaker 1 00:37:38 Okay. So, so, um, the vehicle that was developed by AC propulsion before the Tesla was the T zero, and that was made with bidirectional charging, which means that you get, you can charge from the grid, and the grid can also take energy from your vehicle into the grid. So there are people who are working on trying to have that be a local renewable resource that would cost nothing again, to the grid, that there's some software that can ag well, that's sort of the next piece is the p. So from V two, V two G, those vehicles can be aggregated to form a virtual power plant. So instead of having to build another power plant, if you were to aggregate the, the, the vehicles, and if we have 5 million, which we don't have yet, but in the event, or when we do have 5 million, there will be a lot of electric vehicles available to when they're charging, they can just suddenly go, oh, the grid, the grid needs something. Speaker 1 00:38:53 So right now we have, I dunno if you wanna get into this note, but right now we have very expensive and very stinky peaker plants. They're around, right? And, and, and, uh, running all the time, uh, when, when the grid doesn't have enough electricity that's coming into it, so then they can fire that up. They're the costliest and the stinkiest most polluting part of our grid. If, if the people who are working on this can get the permissions from the various entities who are affected by it, such as the auto indu, there would be interruptions in the auto industry, the utilities, and the, the, uh, the, um, the oil industry, um, to allow this to happen. And none of them are particularly happy about doing that. And there, organiz, there are regulatory bodies that also need to have permissions for this to happen, because the, and you can't just put energy back into the grid, you have to have permissions for that. And, um, right. So does that, Speaker 0 00:40:02 I, does that answer about the vg? Well, I, I can see that we're probably gonna have to have a show at some point about, about these kinds of issues. But, but just to clarify, um, the, the, the problem right now with solar is that it peaks in the middle of the day and the demand for electricity peaks, you know, in the evening. Right? Right. And, um, my understanding is that if you've got cars EVs plugged into the grid, right, by six o'clock, they're at home and they're not being used anymore. And so if they're connected into the grid, they could then become a source of electricity to make up that that lost quantity from the, from the solar dec, you know, declining as, as the sun goes down, right? Yes. So that's, that's really what the, I didn't say that the V2 g Well, you know, just for, for, for, for our listeners, right? To clarify. Yeah. Um, but I can, so Speaker 1 00:40:58 Yes. So that I can see that that glut in the middle of the day that, or we, we have too much solar coming into the grid during the middle of the day. Now, with people being at home, they can charge in the middle of the day and utilize that because California's exporting some of our solar because we have so much, the grid can't handle it. And so yes, if they were to be available in the evening, uh, and be charged up already during the day, and they wouldn't need to be, be, uh, be taking that much from, from them each battery, right? Sure. Could only maybe take 15% and it would be enough enough if there are 5 million vehicles and not all of 'em have to be plugged in at the same time. Yes. And then we have the mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the peak command. Speaker 1 00:41:40 But right now, people don't realize that the grid doesn't stop. They don't like shut stuff down when people aren't using it at night, when everybody turns off their lights, the grid keeps going. So we have been, as the electric vehicle community, we have been encouraged to charge at night when that that energy that's being produced at night is just being dumped. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we're not really costing the grid more, the grid's already making that energy and just dumping it. So when we plug in after nine or 10 o'clock at night, we're just utilizing energy that's getting dumped and likewise during the day with solar. So you charge up your batteries during the day, and then the batteries could be available at night, not only for your own home if you, if you chose to use your batteries that way. And with the increase in the life of batteries, I mean, Elon Musk is talking a million miles. I, in my whole life, I don't think I will ever drive a million miles. So those batteries are gonna be available to power your home to power the grid during times of need. And maybe not even, you know, times of like, I'm not thinking of, I'm thinking of catastrophic times, but also just maybe Yeah, sure. Evenings. Evenings, yeah. Mm-hmm. Speaker 0 00:42:50 <affirmative> mm-hmm. Speaker 1 00:42:51 <affirmative> from four to nine, well, Speaker 0 00:42:52 You know, four Speaker 1 00:42:52 To nine at the time. Speaker 0 00:42:54 I'm, I'm a bit of a cynic, so, uh, I have to always discount what Elon Musk says, right? Um, but, uh, but it does sound like, like, you know, there's being, there's a lot of progress on batteries, and of course, nowadays people are being encouraged to put, uh, battery storage in with their solar systems. What I see, of course, is, is the problem is that if between your electric vehicle and your solar system and your batteries, we're now once again talking about a fair amount of money. And, you know, that raises a question about, about sharing and, um, community energy systems, uh, which, you know, which don't require that people pony up the money to put solar on their, uh, their roofs and, and own an individual vehicle. But you know what, I want to come back and talk about that after our next break. So you're listening to KS Q D 90.7 FM on your radio dial and KS Q t.org streaming on the internet. Emily. Speaker 6 00:43:56 Thanks Ronnie. Join K S Q D tonight at 6:00 PM for reflections on Buddhism featuring the Venerable Tenon, a local Buddhist nun and teacher. This month's topic is the experience of diversity in American Buddhism. Many Buddhist centers in the United States have a membership that is mostly white, middle class and heteronormative. What are the experiences of Buddhist students who identify as people of color or l lgbtq? Our guests are Leilani, Colley Rivers, a student and board member at Shanti Dava Center in Brooklyn, in Christian Howard, a student and teacher at the East Bay Meditation Center in Oakland, who teaches cultivating emotional balance. That's Sunday from six to 7:00 PM on 90.7 K Squid 90, or Benny Voices one station. Back to you, Ronnie. Speaker 0 00:44:48 Okay. Thanks Emily. This is sustainability. Now, I'm Ronnie Lipitz, the host, and I'm speaking with Beverly Des Show, who is president of the Electric Auto Association of the California Central Coast. So be Beverly. I want to shift a little bit to a, uh, I wouldn't call it a philosophical question, but, um, a sustainability question. And that is that what Gavin Newsom is really encouraging, it seems to me, is the sort of dropping in of electric vehicles, in place of fossil fuel powered vehicles, which, which is not going to decrease the number of cars on the highways, and is, you know, when we get back to normal times, uh, we're gonna see highway congestion again. I know I drive sometimes on highway one at three in the afternoon, and it's already backing up. So, uh, won't do, won't this, you know, if, if people buy the, the cars individually, isn't that just simply going to sustain the problem of too many cars on the roads? Speaker 1 00:45:49 Okay. Well, there are a number of issues there. Um, one of them is at three o'clock in the afternoon when I'm coming from the other direction, and I'm passing all of those vehicles sitting there spewing their emissions. Yep. It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. So there's an issue of congestion. Yes, that's an issue, but there's a bigger issue for me, which is pollution. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when those vehicles are sitting there hour after hour, day after day, every day, it's spewing into our environment. So mm-hmm. <affirmative> for now, for now, yes. I think it's a good idea. Let's replace them as quickly as we can, and we'll deal with the next level when we get to that, which is, I think what you're, what you're, um, leading to, which is a, a good thing is what about car share? Well, and and what about public transportation? Speaker 1 00:46:45 People always come up with that. Well, first of all, um, people always use Europe. I've been in Europe at, at rush hour. There are as many cars on the road at rush hour in Europe as there are here. People love their cars. As soon as people get money, they get cars anywhere in the world, or at least some type of motorized vehicle. People love their cars. The idea of car sharing, there are people who are now doing, uh, car sharing co-ops, but I, I don't, I'm not really sure about them, because if everybody's going off to work in the morning, everybody's gonna need the car. At that time, the county of Santa Cruz gave everyone who works for the county free bus pass. Did people use them? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no, free transportation, free, uh, you know, you don't have to pay your car insurance, whatever. No, they didn't use it. Speaker 1 00:47:39 People like to get in their car. I, when I used to go to Cabrillo many, many years ago, I used to have to, you know, walk up and be traumatized because I was never sure if I was gonna be on time. And it would take me 45 minutes to get there in the stinky bus, which they aren't stinky from the tailpipe now. And it takes people's time and who gets who, you know, we are considered, our region is considered rural, even though we have these, you know, big pockets of cars, it's considered rural. It's not that feasible. 3% of the population of Santa Cruz County uses the bus, and people say, well, if they were better, no. Who it's gonna burden is people who are already poor and their time is already burdened. They're the ones who, you know, have to drive far because they can't afford to live where they work and have to pick up their kids and pick up the law, you know, the groceries, and make the food and do the homework, and all of that. Speaker 1 00:48:36 Those people are already burdened, so people like their cars. So I say, okay, if you like your cars, at least have them be that. When you're sitting there, you are not spewing out your tailpipe. That's my personal preference on that. And I say people don't want the extra lane, the, uh, what do they call the auxiliary lanes when I go on that lane, the auxiliary lane coming off where I am, there's never traffic there. There's always people say, oh, it's gonna keep, well, it's gonna keep getting more. Well, I don't, you know, these, these roads that we have now, were built along a long time ago before we've had the population that we have. So get real and <laugh>, you know, that's my thought is get real and quit polluting, and then we'll figure out the congestion later. People can share then great. But Speaker 0 00:49:24 Oh, oh, well, I don't see it. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. I'm gonna play devil's advocate here because Go ahead. Because it seems to me that if you put the sharing off until every, every after everyone has a car, then basically, as you say, people aren't going to be interested in sharing cars. Uh, I mean, first of all, the love of the car is a, is a, is a learned norm. It's a, it's not just a matter of, of, you know, the, the distances. It's, it's also we've learned to, to love cars just because we're told that, you know, we should be loving cars. It's, um, but let, let me not preach, let me not preach about that. But you know, you mentioned earlier that a lot of people drive their EVs maybe 20 or 30 miles a day. So most of the day they're sitting, you know, either at the office or at home. Right. And surely we have the, the computing power to work out car sharing software, you know, sort of like Uber, but, but not the same kind of exploitative stuff. Speaker 1 00:50:25 Um, well, there's actually actually a, there's actually an online program that that does that people who own vehicles, any kind of vehicle can rent them out. Touro, Speaker 0 00:50:35 Touro do com. Well, I, I, I'm not thinking, you know, I mean, I was thinking, it, it seems to me that, that if you buy a, uh, an ev with your neighbor, right, that has the price of the vehicle. Yeah. So, um, but um, but just to get, Speaker 1 00:50:51 To get to your point, the I am about how people are <laugh> Speaker 0 00:50:54 Well, people want their owned, but, but you Speaker 1 00:50:57 Say, you say to learns behavior, but we have, what's happened is that because we have had the vehicle, we've made our lifestyles so that we require them Speaker 0 00:51:07 Now. Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh, sure. No, no, I'm not, I'm not arguing that, you know, sprawl is not a, a great incentive to have individual cars. Right. Um, but to be quite honest with you, if, if California is serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, we're also gonna have to do something about sprawl. Look, I I, the, the last thing I, I think I wanted to ask was this trick question. Okay. And, and I know you said you didn't know I anything about it. Well, I, I did this calculation, so there are about 20 million cars and small trucks in California, and I said, if you assume the average price for an EV to be $30,000, the total replacement cost would be at least $600 billion. Now, of course, that's people individually spending the money, but then I looked, how much does it cost to spend to, to build transit and high speed rail? And it turns out that amount of money could, could, uh, could pay for 10,000 miles of transit and high-speed rail. Um, and the original plan for the California high-speed rail was a system of 800 miles. So, you know, of course, I'm, I'm assuming a great deal of rationality in, in the state, you know, state planning, and I, I, I mean, I realize it's, it's not, it's not reasonable, but of course, you gotta, you gotta, you know, tell people about this. Have them, have them, imagine what's possible. Um, well, you know, I'll stop, I'll stop Speaker 1 00:52:37 Been, people in Santa Cruz have been talking about P r T for a long time, which I think is a fabulous idea, but it's never Speaker 0 00:52:45 No, it's never, no. You know, uh, uh, uh, Beverly's talking about Ron s Swenson's, um, personal rapid transit units, uh, which you can find out about on the web. What, what I always, what I never understood about that was that if, you know, if one of the cars on the track breaks, then everybody stops. Um, so, you know, it's not clear to me that that's the solution, a solution, but, but it's not. But let's, let's go on Speaker 1 00:53:14 Anyway. Yeah, Speaker 0 00:53:15 Well, no, yeah, of course. The design is, you know, the design <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. You can throw it off. Speaker 1 00:53:21 You Speaker 0 00:53:22 Could throw it off, but now you're back, you know, now you're back to, uh, uh, autonomous little autonomous buses or things like that. Yeah, yeah. Um, so Speaker 1 00:53:29 The other thing, is there any, the other thing that will be an interrupter here is the Autonom autonomous vehicle. Is that where you're gonna go? Autonomous Speaker 0 00:53:37 Vehicles? No, I wasn't, but go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, I wasn't gonna go there, but so Speaker 1 00:53:40 What people are predicting is that, that what, that, that is going to solve. Some of it, the people simply are not going to buy vehicles if they, you know, if people who live close into town, they can just, um, call up an autonomous vehicle and shows up at their house and takes them where they want to go. And so, right. So that is, is coming to the future of people will just, in fact, when they have other options such as that, they, that's a convenient thing. You know, if people, yeah, people had a taxi. My neighbor gets a taxi every day to go to work. She doesn't have a vehicle, she has a taxi. But, so most people aren't willing to pay that. But if, if it works out, um, that it's, that it's less expensive, people will go with what works for them in terms of what's, what's less expensive. Speaker 1 00:54:27 And if they can just call up a vehicle when they need it once in a while, then then they will be inclined to do that. But we don't have that option yet to find out, but we will find out. But yes, you were right when you were talking about the high speed rail for those long distances. That's a great idea. And, um, I don't exactly remember what I said about it, is I don't exactly know what happened. I think it may might have ended up being some sort of boondoggle, but the other problem with it is, is it's not electric. They're, they're having it be diesel. And so Speaker 0 00:54:55 Really, no, I thought, well, okay. And Speaker 1 00:54:58 The one that, the one on the rail trail, they wanna bring in either a diesel or, or hydrogen, which hydrogen, hydrogen sounds like it's good, but it actually costs twice the amount of energy to use hydrogen as to just Cisco Straight Electric, because they build the fuel cell, and that cost then twice then, then to the, uh, to the battery. So it's twice the electrical engineers and the Electric Auto Association say it's like driving your car twice, and it's being produced by fossil fuel. We believe it's the fossil fuel industry's way of staying in the game. Speaker 0 00:55:33 Well, listen, we're almost out of time. And I, I thought, do you wanna tell people, listeners how to, how they can find out more about, uh, the Electric Auto Association, uh, or to join? Speaker 1 00:55:44 Yes, that's what I wanna, I was hoping, are you gonna have, uh, on your recording where you'll have some way, uh, of, of writing them out there? We, there are a number of websites, and what I can say is that people are interested in buying an electric vehicle. Our sister organization, who we do the national events with is Plugin America, plugin America spelled out Plugin america.org has a guide for all the electric vehicles that are available, the cost, the range, all the details. Um, the Electric Auto Association, our website is not so great, and I'm gonna be harping on somebody to, to get that handled. But to join us is electric auto.org, and you can join us. And, um, the Sierra Club also has some, some valuable guides for buying electric vehicles as well. Um, so, and, and there are local organization and mbar, uh, Monterey Bay Air Resource District, M b a r d.org. They are the ones who have incentives for, um, for electric vehicles locally. Speaker 0 00:56:50 Well, I'll post that information along with the blurb when I, uh, upload the, uh, the broadcast. So listen, Beverly, I want to thank you for being my guest on sustainability now. Speaker 1 00:57:00 I thank you for having me. It's been really a pleasure. Speaker 0 00:57:04 Good. So my guest in two weeks will be Dave Bloom, who operates Bloom Distillation and Whiskey Hill Farm near Watsonville. You might recall that Dave was a guest on sustainability. Now at the end of 2019, he came and talked about, about alcohol distillation. Well, this time we're gonna be doing a walking tour of Whiskey Hill Farm and looking at its various permaculture and regenerative agriculture practices and technological OV innovations, connecting the alcohol distillation and organic agriculture. And I'm hoping we can make a video to, uh, to go along with that, that will post online. So that's Sunday, November 29th, five to 6:00 PM right here on KS Q D 90.7 FM and kqd.org on the internet. As a reminder, for those of you who get up with us Sun, and it's coming up again, uh, early shows from the five to 6:00 PM Sunday slot are rebroadcast the following Tuesday mornings from six to 7:00 AM If you'd like to listen to previous broadcasts of sustainability, now you can find them at kqd.org/sustainability now, as well as on Spotify, Google Podcasts and Pockets among other podcast sites. I want to thank Emily Dono for today's excellent engineering, and of course, everyone else at the station who makes this show possible and K S Q D possible. And so until every next, until next, every other Sunday, sustainability now Speaker 3 00:58:38 Riding along Speaker 2 00:58:39 Automobile, Speaker 3 00:58:41 My baby beside me at I a kiss at the turn of mile, my curiosity, running wild cruising and playing the radio with no particular place to.